Shame, shame (kinda) AKA the price of success.

[Samarkand]

Apropos of islandRED's post from the AC Milan thread, this got me thinking.

speaking of class, was a bit disappointed when some folks (day trippers? doubt they were TUS) @ the 11th street were saying "who are ya?!" when kaka was shown. i mean.. really?! .. did they not know who he was? )

As one of the prime movers of 11th St. as the home for LFCNY, I have to admit that I found yesterday to be a little disappointing. This thread has nothing to do with the owners of 11th St - once again they outdid themselves with free sarnies and the beer was flowing uninterrupted.

One of the things that makes 11th St. great, is also one of its downfalls - it's very cozy and intimate, but on big days when there's an influx of all types, it does get swamped. But such is the price of success of both LFC and LFCNY. (FYI, for those who are interested, between those who got in and those who were turned away, the number was about 400).

No, this rant or screed is not about the bar and the way it's run, but rather what I would definitely term bandwaggoners in 11th St. yesterday. It's a very fine line to tread, because while you want to be seen as welcoming and open, equally you don't want to appear insular and cliqueish to the extent that you frighten off newbies. But too many of the bandwaggoners yesterday were a disgrace. They knew the words (sometimes) but not the why. And for those that didn't know the words, too often they were reduced Americanisms of Lets go Liverpool! a la a baseball chant!

There are years of history that go with being a Liverpool fan. A few things that always separate us from the unwashed hoardes are respect for the opposition players and respect for the opposition team. Sure, during the game you can call Gattuso all manner of names, or Kaka, but it's done so always in the knowledge that these players and team are worthy adversaries. And when they win you acknowledge and applaud. I was not there, but in days of yore on the Kop always acknowledged when they were beaten. The cry of "Champions!" rang out when Leeds won the (old) 1st division in the 60s? Liverpool fans have always been generous in their respect and acknowledgment when beaten.

Yesterday in 11th St., that aspect was missing. Milanese players were derided as islandRED says with "Who are ya?" and down my end of the bar, I found the crowd to be singularily ungracious after the final whistle. And the coup de grace was some complete fucking idiot (excuse the language) turning off the plasma just as Maldini was about the hoist the cup. Only that I was stuck behind some others, I would have been stuck into him. Unfortunately, and it must be said, even when he was told politely(!) to FO and the Liverpool way was explained to him, he just didn't get it, explaining Yankee fans don't cheer for the Red Sox. He was a bandwaggoner and if I could have my way, he'd never be allowed in again. Mind you, I'm sure we won't see him until our next final anyway.

Anyway, rant over. I was just left feeling a little disappointed with the class of some of the bandwaggoners in 11th St. yesterday; perhaps if we'd won, I wouldn't have noticed.

[ConnieLFC]

Screw the bogus RTF movement stuff (honestly! ) - the genuine RTB movement is already underway...those who want to be involved or have a stake in it in relation to what's been discussed both here and in the CL Final thread would be best advised to show up for the AGM on June 12th.

And just to be perfectly clear, this is me with committee/moderator hat decidedly off - certainly any issues with the hat on will be dealt with with all respect and care. That said, I've got my own issues here too and as a clubmember of 10+ years, I too will express them. Hugely disappointed by yesterday does not even come close to expressing how I felt, the match having very little to do with it. Any fallout/feedback I'm more than willing to address by PM.

And Sami, you are far more gracious than myself. Not about excluding anyone, but they better g****mn get with the program.

[Delaware Red]

Hey Connie / Sami,

But from the sound of it, very much like in the stadium Wednesday night, you met with many people who didn't put the hours in and are your archetypal bandwagon supporters.

Many of us over here have put in thousands of miles, and pounds over the season. I was fortunate enough to get in reletively trouble free, albeit nearly 2 hours before the game, but that was after meeting numerous fans from other teams on "freebies" and knobs on the plane reading THAT paper.

Very sad that, considering the effort you guys put into running the club, what should be the pinnacle of the season, it tainted not only in the result being a loss, but the occassion not meeting it's usual LFC level.

Perhaps in a similar way to the RTK, next season you could print up some sheets with a few kind notes as to "what we are about". Not that you should tell anyone how to support their club, but just a general note that we don't sing certain songs, and perhaps for the newbies, as everyone starts somewhere, words for the key songs???

[Ruddy]

Screw the bogus RTF movement stuff (honestly! ) - the genuine RTB movement is already underway..

Isn't there room for both?

Seriously though, I am proud that both you and Samarkand have taken this point up. There was so much offensive behavior on display by these aggro-sports fans that it at times overshadowed the match. Your response reassures me that this is not some general trend that has taken place at 11th st but a result of the big game final and will be dealt with. As I wrote elsewhere, homophobic and racist speech should not be tolerated and I think the AGM will have some good productive ideas to confront this trend.

It's not about knowing the words to the songs or even the rules of the game for that matter, the type of morons who showed up on Wednesday showed a complete lack of respect and an absurd amount of aimless hostility that characterizes the worst apsects of American sports fandom. Spoiled frat boys screaming epithets for 90 minutes. It's not necessary to repeat the comments here; you can pretty much read between the lines to figure it out.

So once again, bravo to Samarkand for the sentiments and bon courage to Connie and the rest of the regulars for taking this up.

R

[ConnieLFC]

Hey Connie / Sami,

But from the sound of it, very much like in the stadium Wednesday night, you met with many people who didn't put the hours in and are your archetypal bandwagon supporters.

Many of us over here have put in thousands of miles, and pounds over the season. I was fortunate enough to get in reletively trouble free, albeit nearly 2 hours before the game, but that was after meeting numerous fans from other teams on "freebies" and knobs on the plane reading THAT paper.

DR, I've read as much elsewhere...obviously people just wanting to take in "the scene", the match itself almost being an inconvenience! (That was definitely the attitude for some at The 11th St. as well.) Just curious - when you say "freebies" here, are you talking corporate tickets? If not, how did they acquire them? It sounds like the whole thing has turned into a circus.

Very sad that, considering the effort you guys put into running the club, what should be the pinnacle of the season, it tainted not only in the result being a loss, but the occassion not meeting it's usual LFC level.

Perhaps in a similar way to the RTK, next season you could print up some sheets with a few kind notes as to "what we are about". Not that you should tell anyone how to support their club, but just a general note that we don't sing certain songs, and perhaps for the newbies, as everyone starts somewhere, words for the key songs???

Probably not a bad idea though once a whopper, always a whopper in my book...

I realize I'm coming perilously close to sounding like an überfan with some of my complaints. Everyone's different and can support the team in their own way...but I do feel like if you're going to be at our bar, you absolutely should show some respect, *especially* if you're taking a spot away from someone who's been coming week in/week out for the last nine months. If you don't, then expect to get harassed/cursed at/thrown out. Ruddy mentioned in the Final thread about borderline racist/homophobic comments being shouted (thankfully I missed those) - yes, some of us probably should've been more proactive but there probably would be legal issues at play. I don't know what the best answer is but the whole thing was - and still is - very depressing to me. All I know is something has to give.

[islandRED]

Lastly, I found the 'daytrippers' to be more than just a little annoying. For long stretches of the match they made the 11th St very unpleasant, screaming homophobic and quasi-racist bile. That sort of stuff might be commonplace at Yankee stadium but it was really offensive to see the 11th St play host to it. I am disappointed that the other supporters (myself included) didn't do more to confront these crazed idiots.

interesting last point ruddy. didnt hear the harsher stuff you mention, but to be honest not sure i would have felt i had agency to shout the ar$e$ down and put them out. (i believe connie did respond to one silly cry from that part of the bar but sadly it went over thick heads.)

i am looking forward to the AGM and discussion how we can (to what ever extent we can) prevent such negative types souring the atmosphere.

[Ruddy]

yeah, I know what you mean about agency. it's just one of those cases where I wish I had something like, "I'm a gay, Itallian-American and you can **** off to Nevada Smiths!" (disclosure-I'm neither)
There were a group of old timers yelling back at the whoppers but it evidently wasn't enough. The other issue being who wants to take up time away from the match to deal with these people. Unfortunately though, they don't go away if you ignore them.

[UWSRed]

I was not at 11th Street for the Final, and am saddened and concerned to hear about what sounds like a relatively poisonous atmosphere.
However, having watched my fair share of the big matches "on the crush barrier" at the front of the bar, particularly both legs vs Chelsea, I have to say reading that the day-tripper invasion happened could not be a surprise.
The second leg vs Chelsea there were a TON of people in the front of the who I had never seen before, but I bet my bottom euro right now that they were there Wednesday. (One particular crew stands out in my mind, a bunch of guys who sat or stood on the bench at the front, drinking a ton (not that I haven't in the past) and adding nothing to the scene.
I'll say this right now, knowing that I won't be attending the AGM on account of working night, but I support any move to either "ticket" the bigger games, or do something to guarantee more regulars get in.
In the strongest possible language, I'll be damned if some morons are going to ruin our club, or our viewing experience.
Off to Nevada's you lot, where you belong with the rest of them.

[ConnieLFC]

Yes yes and yes. Jack's right - it was absolutely no surprise to me that Wednesday was the way it was...these folks have slowly been trickling into the bar over the course of the season, and especially since Barcelona.

Now that I think of it, some of the folks who showed up Wed. were probably the same Nevada Smith's rejects from last Saturday's FA Cup final. After that game, some American dude in a (brand-new) Chelsea shirt said he never knew The 11th Street was here and how great it is... Being cocky and after trying to make some lame banter with me (which I wasn't having) he says, "All kidding aside, I'll be supporting you guys on Wednesday." I thought to myself "sure you will, you gloryhunting f***** tw*t." I'd be more than willing to bet Jack's bottom Euro that he was occupying a seat at The 11th Street during the final.

Not trying to take any business away from the bar, but any Manc/Chelsea/Arsenal/______-supporting types can either come on their own time or bugger off elsewhere in my book.

[TRDW]

I too am saddened to hear of the atmosphere at 11th Street for the final. I have moved to Atlanta for graduate school and was unable to catch any games at 11th Street since January, but for the past year and a half it was my soccer home. I'd make the hour 15 minute drive into the city from NJ on match day (not every week but usually at least once a month) simply for the atmosphere and the people. I never actually met most of you in person (due to being somewhat shy i guess) but what drew me to the bar was the knowledge and passion of those that attended.

I saw my first real game, as I've said many times before, on the 25th of May in Dublin, Ireland, having not been an "official" Liverpool fan at the time. The people in the pub that night were much like those in 11th Street. Me being the lone American, they embraced me and I learned so much just by being there. I made 100 friends that night during the game, singing what songs I was able to catch on to etc...

That's what soccer (football) is all about, especially LFC football. I can sit home and watch the games on tv (when they are on FSC) and I enjoy it, but it's being an atmosphere with people who really know the intricacies of the game, and singing the songs, and yelling knowledgeable insults ("Piss off Robben" still rings in my ears from a Chelsea game last year, my first at 11th Street). Since I was in Atlanta and unable to attend I told my uncle to attend at the bar (a calm quiet guy who has gotten into LFC through me and has attended 11th street with me a few times) and he described the atmosphere as "morgue-like". Now I wouldn't take that too seriously and he is not too knowledgeable in the game, but I could tell from his description that it wasn't the traditional 11th Street crowd.

As for a solution, what about allowing club members guaranteed access to the big games, or charging $5 or $10 to get in (maybe club members free) and purchasing those $5 or $10 tickets in advance (as someone else suggested). This could keep some of the rifraf out. Also a side note, I'm not quite sure of the abbreviation RTB and RTF

I won't be home for the AGM summit, and the reality is I won't be able to catch many games at 11th Street for the next 3 years while in school (3 weeks in summer and 3 weeks in winter, I will for sure squeeze a game in, in the winter!) but I don't want to see 11th Street get torn apart by drunk "Americans" who are there for the event and not for the game. Most at 11th street go to that bar and pour their heart into the club, every weekend for 9 months, and we deserve the final to be a celebration, win or lose, of our team, our friends, and the fans, who worked so hard to get to where they are!