Would you swop Liverpool's record 2000 -2005 for any other English clubs?

[Uncle Spike]

In a discussion on another thread, I put a question to Pig (which he predictably evaded ) which I think might be worth throwing open to the whole forum.

It is this..... Consider Liverpool's record and achievements over the last five seasons, from the start of the 2000-2001 season, to the end of last season, the 2004-05.

If you could swop Liverpool's record for any of the other Premiership clubs, (an exact swop, precisely their results in the competitions they entered over the entire five seasons) then would you? And if so, which club would it be, and why?

My point is that I personally would NOT swop our record and achievements for anybody's. And I also believe that the majority of the fans of Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea would leap at the opportunity to swop their record for ours!

In other words, I believe Liverpool FC are comfortably the most successful English club of the last five seasons.

Consider what we have won during that period.... The European Champion's League (2005).... The UEFA Cup (2001)..... The European Super Cup twice (2001 and 2005)..... The FA Cup (2001)..... The League Cup twice (2001 and 2003).... The FA Charity/Community shield (2001).
That is eight major trophies in five seasons, which is pretty amazing by any standards. (Think of that in the context of Newcastle United, who haven't won a single trophy since the dark ages! )

Yes, I agree the glaring ommission in that line up of trophies is the Premiership, and Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have all won the Premiership in that period.
But the glorious achievement of the Champion's League for me more than makes up for that lack, and moreover I believe most of the opposition fans would agree.

Take the Arsenal fans. The one overwhelming frustration for them is the lack of a European Cup. They believe themselves to hold the status of being one of the top clubs in Europe, but deep down they know they will never really be accepted as such until they win the European Cup. For them, it represents the unobtainable Holy Grail.
I believe most Arse fans would happily swop their record for ours, to have the 2005 European cup in their trophy cabinet.

Likewise, the manc fans hate and loathe the fact that we hold five European Cups to their two. To deny us Istanbul, to have their third European cup and be only one behind us in the lists, they would seize the chance to exchange their record for ours.

And as for Chelsea, their one Premiership success is pretty small beer, compared with our European Cup and seven other trophies in the last five seasons. Their fans would undoubtedly also happily swop records.

So there you have it, in my opinion. If the fans of the mancs, arse and chelski would all prefer our record over the last five seasons to their own, are we REALLY DOING QUITE SO BADLY AS TO JUSTIFY ALL THE GLOOM WE READ ON THE FORUM?

So over to you, Forum? Would you swop? For who's record and why? And who agrees with me, that Liverpool's record 2000-2005 is the best?

[Albert Stubbins]

I would not swap our record. But I would have swapped some of the dross we have called football for some of the exciting stuff seen at Highbury a few seasons ago and at Goodison Park last season

The Houllier treble in 2001, the Super Cup win against Munich, and the Houllier legacy win in Istanbul were all fantastic achievements.

But the Pig has a valid point with respect to the culture of mediocrity. We could have and should been better.

Yet, as I noted some time ago, the Shankly years were not all glory. Indeed we were second, third, fourth or fifth fiddle to the likes of Everton, Man City, Man Utd, Derby, Arsenal and Leeds, with no silverware to talk of for many of those years.

And although we played in our fair share of 0-0 draws back then, there was not, I believe, a sense of great achievement and hype surrounding such displays. The claptrap we hear after a horrible performance such as, for example, Middlebrough away, is truly maddening, and therein lays the frustration for many. We don't like being told we were just treated to a grafting hard worked for draw where we created all sorts of great chances at the lions den. When the reality was that we were playing a patchwork quilt of overweight has beens, and we were truly awful, and did not approach the game as the Champions we are.

Hence the sense of regression for some. It is not something of the Pig's or any one else's imagination. Where there was once wide eyed hope to take all before us, there is now something else, some blinkered empty shallow eyes flinkering nervously hoping to occasionally grab something.

[Fridge]

A lot of people (some may call them detractors) would not include the Charity shield or Super Cup but a club has to have won a competition to participate in either of them. I wouldn't swap a our haul for any clubs.

[Big Dave]

If you throw in 1999, I might swap with United's record...

[ConnieLFC]

If you throw in 1999, I might swap with United's record...

Took the words right out of my mouth, Big D, and I assume 2000 was the starting date for exactly that reason....

I don't reckon I would swap what we've achieved either for the time period stated, but the relatively poor league form exhibited (2001-2002 excepted) does dim the shine on the trophy wins a bit. I find it hard to believe that a season where we finish fewer than 10 pts behind the league winners seems quite remote...but it does... someone correct me but I think we've only done it three times in the last 10 years?

But seriously, aside from the reclamation of Big Ears in May, I really don't think the "big three" envy our trophy haul too much - the club's collective trophy haul over the years (and what these wins added to that), yes - but not those since 2000 in and of themselves (again, aside from Big Ears).

[Uncle Spike]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Big D, and I assume 2000 was the starting date for exactly that reason....

Precisely. But the manc's Champions League success in the 1998-99 season is now SEVEN seasons ago (assuming Spike can add up ).

Thats far enough back to be fairly excluded from any consideration of recent achievements.

(it also makes you realise just how old the "golden generation" of manc players are getting. Keane might not be the only one on the way out at the end of the season.)

I think the last five seasons is a fair and reasonable period to compare achievements. But if people want to go back further, then lets make it thirty years, to include ALL our European cups!!!

Still don't want to swop, do yer?!!!

[Scouse Paul]

Precisely. But the manc's Champions League success in the 1998-99 season is now SEVEN seasons ago (assuming Spike can add up ).

Thats far enough back to be fairly excluded from any consideration of recent achievements.

(it also makes you realise just how old the "golden generation" of manc players are getting. Keane might not be the only one on the way out at the end of the season.)

I think the last five seasons is a fair and reasonable period to compare achievements. But if people want to go back further, then lets make it thirty years, to include ALL our European cups!!!

Still don't want to swop, do yer?!!!

Excellent thread & point well made, Spike, although I await your denunciation by the doom-meister
Oh, and by the way, they won the Champions League in 97/98, which makes it EIGHT seasons

[ConnieLFC]

Excellent thread & point well made, Spike, although I await your denunciation by the doom-meister
Oh, and by the way, they won the Champions League in 97/98, which makes it EIGHT seasons

SP, you're slipping! That "historic treble" for the Mancs was the 98-99 season (you'll recall the Arsenal did their league/FA Cup double in 97-98).

Sadly, I remember too much about the Mancs' exploits then - our jammy 2-1 loss to them in the FA Cup, our 2-2 draw with them in the pentultimate week of the season that should've allowed Arsenal the edge in the title race (only for them to lose to Leeds the very next day), the usuallly-reliable Martin Keown failing to stop the pubic-hair-chested Giggs from scoring in the semi-final replay (perhaps a coda to our thread re Everton/Wimbledon?), all up to the even jammier CL final against Bayern. As you can probably tell, I had no life then....

[Scouse Paul]

SP, you're slipping! That "historic treble" for the Mancs was the 98-99 season (you'll recall the Arsenal did their league/FA Cup double in 97-98).

Sadly, I remember too much about the Mancs' exploits then - our jammy 2-1 loss to them in the FA Cup, our 2-2 draw with them in the pentultimate week of the season that should've allowed Arsenal the edge in the title race (only for them to lose to Leeds the very next day), the usuallly-reliable Martin Keown failing to stop the pubic-hair-chested Giggs from scoring in the semi-final replay (perhaps a coda to our thread re Everton/Wimbledon?), all up to the even jammier CL final against Bayern. As you can probably tell, I had no life then....

You are only right Connie Perhpas a mixture of wishful thinking & being a "gentleman of a certain age" on my behalf!

[Uncle Spike]

Excellent thread & point well made, Spike, although I await your denunciation by the doom-meister

No sign of him turning up on this thread, Paul!
Just as he evaded the question on the other thread, he's avoiding this thread entirely!

It's difficult to continue with the "doom and gloom", "Benitez is a diaster", "All is woe" theme;- if you're forced to admit Liverpool FC are the most successful Premiership side of the last five seasons!!!!!!!